DF’d or DA???

by DATA-DOG in

so, i think i’m going to be df’d, but elders are out of town and no decision has been officially reached.

what would happen if i sent a certified overnight letter and said that i was going to disassociate before they have their meeting??.

i know the two conditions are similar, but i’m just curious... dd.

"Road to nowhere" has it right. Just disappear. Walk away. Don't answer their calls. Don't return their mail. If they come to your home and you meet them at the door, just tell them you can't talk because you do not feel well. Don't expand on anything. Just go. Don't look back. Toss all of your collections of old magazines and books in the recycle bin. Don't watch JW videos or apostate videos for at least 6 months. Spend your spare time watching relaxing shows and documentaries on TV. Read a lot of recent best sellers and listen to your favorite music. If you are approached by a JW acquaintance politely tell them that you are not in the mood to talk to them. Clear your head. Do something that is relaxing and fun and just let your brain and body (and bank account) rest and catch up.

At the same time, remember that leaving the JWs is like leaving alcohol or drugs. JW related thoughts will linger in your head for months and create some stress. You will get through all of that soon enough. Withdrawal symptoms are your body's way of easing you down slowly. If you want to have a little mental abuse in your life, watch Trump discussions on your TV station. You can not help but slowly clear your head. Watch some good nature documentaries on cable TV. You get a whole new concept of reality watching nature and geology in action. Suddenly things will clear up. One day you will have a brief pang of regret and give it all a second thought - that's normal. But those feeling will pass when you think back about the boredom and repetition of the meetings, the inane 3rd grade reading level articles in the magazines and on JW.org. Avoid calling or talking to any of your old JW friends. They aren't interested in helping you resolve your issues - they want to shame you into returning. That's their only goal. In real life, other JWs don't give a fart about your reasons for leaving. They don't care about your feelings or motivations. They only want to shame you into returning to the cult.

Within a few months you will really begin to enjoy the freedom and clarity of thought. Yes, you may miss some of your old JW friends - but give it time and you will soon be able to recognize which of those "friends" were fond of you because they really liked you, enjoyed your company and cared about you. The rest will avoid you and try to shame you into returning so they can shame you some more.

Think FREEDOM of your mind, body, finances, and time. Those will be your rewards by leaving the cult.

JV

23

Why the meetings are boring and uninspiring

by UnshackleTheChains in

each individual may have their own views as to why they feel the meetings are boring and uninspiring.

in my case i find the midweek meeting so, because of the constant emphasis on pitching watchtower literature.

its just monotonous and one big yawn.. i watch other christian faiths where they open up a chapter of the bible and discuss it's contents.

Juan Viejo2

Lisa Rose, A recent video on YouTube showed a gentleman that managed to get assigned as a fill-in speaker at a remote KHall. It turned out that he took the subject assigned and modified it in a truly honest and expository way. It took the other elders in the KH a few minutes to realize that he was not delivering a WT prepared talk. But when they did they shut him down pretty quick.

What I found interesting was that as you watch the audience, they somehow knew something was wrong. Even though he was speaking the truth, it was clear that it wasn't Watchtower "truth" - and soon the elders were up and trying to get him off the stage and out the door. But if you listen to what he said, it was not profane, accusatory, or supportive of any other religion. But it clearly was not from the Watchtower.

That fellow will be on my heroes list for quite a while. His brave move proved his point very clearly.

https://youtu.be/hLgwyfhtIHM

J Viejo

23

Were visits to the library an important part of your childhood?

by compound complex in

jw
friends

greetings, fellow bibliophiles:.

i remember how sad i was, as a little child, when our beloved carnegie library was razed (unsafe, structurally).

the same tragedy occurred when we moved to a new town and that similar architectural treasure was demolished to put up a new and gleaming building of steel and glass.

Juan Viejo2

Raised in Riverside, California in the 1950s and 60s, I regularly visited the downtown library (also originally financed by a Carnegie grant). The old library was a classic in every way and was located between the historic Mission Inn and the Riverside Community Auditorium (a site for most annual JW circuit assemblies for that area).

I got my love of books from my mother. My dad was not a reader, nor were any of my relatives on his side of the family. Besides my mother, my aunt "Jerrie" (Geraldine), who was not a witness, but perhaps the smartest member of my family. Jerrie would sit down with a cup of coffee and the New York Times daily crosswords and blitz through them all before her coffee got cold. I loved when we visited her. I asked her how she became so proficient in words and puzzles. "Went to the library almost every day. Looked up something new in the dictionary or encyclopedia before I went to bed every night. It's easy if you just stay on top of learning something new and looking up what you don't know."

While far from being as skilled with crosswords as my aunt was, I still remember many facts that I learned while visiting the library as a child and many of them have stayed with me throughout my life. Although I have owned a copy of "The Two Babylons" by Hislop since I was 15 or 16 years old, I still refer to it every so often (more for entertainment than for historic facts), I see that there are copies still on Amazon.com. Most of it has been discredited or challenged, it's still a good read for entertainment. And my first exposure to it was the local library.

That's why I strongly suggest that everyone living in medium to large cities continue to visit their local libraries. Some cities without libraries have state universities nearby that will sometimes offer access to local citizens.

I definitely count my love of books and history to my being allowed by my parents to read anything I wanted and to go to the library anytime. I am fortunate to live in my state's capital city and am just 50 miles from Portland, also home to some excellent libraries and bookstores to go rummage through.

Carnegie was not a saint by any means, but like a lot of multi-millionaires of his time, he did finance and fund some projects that have survived to our day. If you have one in your area go visit it and pat the door on the way in as you whisper "Thanks, Andy, for the very nice gift to us all."

JV

48

Watchtower Releases 2017 Grand Total Figures!

by darkspilver in

jw
friends

2017 grand totals.

branches of jehovah’s witnesses: 90. .

number of lands reporting: 240. .

Juan Viejo2

I don't trust the Watchtower numbers at all. "Publishers" can count both baptized and unbaptized. They can also count children who accompany their parents as they go door to door.

In recent years, anyone who spent as little as a half dozen hours in a year engaged in any JW activities would be counted as "publishers" as long as they turned in at least on time report.

Times have changed since my days as a JW kid publisher aged 10 to 16. One of my parents or a fellow JW would go down one side of a street and I would do the other by myself. I would engage the resident of any house where the door opened. I would often go inside and sit on the couch and preach to adults (lucky me - never molested). We just didn't think about it - we just did it. And our hours were true hours - from the time we knocked on our first door until we got in the car to leave the territory. When we stood on street corners with magazines, we were expected to walk up to as many people as we could and engage them, offering them the latest magazines and also engaging them in conversation if they stopped and wanted to chat.

Today's Watchtower and most JWs are sadly very poor salesmen for the religion. The magazines and booklets are laughable and so juvenile. If someone challenged us while we were working a street corner, we'd offer to engage them in a sincere and active conversation. The keepers of the magazine stands now prefer not to talk to you if they can avoid it - and going into a deep conversation or any kind of theological argument is unheard of today. I truly believe that 99% of their growth is due to new children born into the organization and a few old timers who left and then returned because they simply had to do so for financial, health or relationship reasons.

JV

43

The denial of 1975 when and how did they go about it.

by Crazyguy in

i was pretty young in 1975, all i remember was a few complaining at the hall after and those at the door that razed us over it.

does anyone remember how they went about denying it and when this started.

i do remember a scripture in psalms about people being mighty and living longer so this was used.

Juan Viejo2

LisaRose wrote: "As 1975 grew closer the Watchtower was already back pedaling a bit about that date being the end. For a while not much was said about it, some people still believed it was going to happen any time, others did not, mostly people didn't talk about it. By the time the Watchtower did talk about it, they basically tried to shift blame, acting as if some people "went ahead of the things written" when the reality was that they did everything they could to make people believe that the world was ending while not actually saying so in so many words..."

-------

That was exactly what my father told me when he called and apologized for shunning my brother and I because we left the JWs a few years before. He took all of the blame on his own shoulders. He told me that F. Franz never really said that Armageddon would come in 1975, he simply said that "it could happen that year or soon after." My father used those exact words mentioned above - "your mother and I went ahead of the things written." They took all of the blame and did not accuse Franze or the Watchtower for anything that happened.

The fact was that in Kingdom Halls everywhere, the elders were beating their flock with almost constant warnings to become more active, get rid of their doubts, divorce unbelieving spouses and ignore unbelieving children and other relatives who would not join their parade. That awful 1975 prophecy divided more families than just about any other thing the WT had ever done. For many JWs, it was a black and white issue: Believe in 1975 or get out and be shunned.

And then the rank and file took all of the blame on their own shoulders. They were all convinced that the WT never said that 1975 would be the beginning of Armageddon for sure - but individual JWs (all 4 million or so of them) took it literally and ran with it. This was Jehovah's way of saying "don't run ahead of my organization - or even run alongside the WT."

A lot of tears were shed, a lot of money and property lost, and a lot of medical procedures put off for too many years because JWs believed the big 1975 lie. The Watchtower will forever carry "blood guilt" over that major blunder.

JV

47

Serena Williams Pregnant

by wisdomfrombelow in

jw
friends

now that she has announced that she is 20 weeks pregnant and not married, what is her status in the cult?

.

Juan Viejo2

I've given Serena a lot of thought in the past and I think that her parents may very well be the bottom line in re her decision to get baptized.

I can imagine that her father and mother have discussed this whole thing very carefully with Serena and given her specific guidelines about how she should walk the line of being an unbaptized Witness.

Like Prince, Serena has been very vocal and demonstrative at times about her connection to the JWs, and yet (like Prince) has never really changed their act. Some of what she does is simply reflexive as part of her winning and playing in tournaments. Running around the stadium with her sister waving the American flag is clearly responsive and showing good citizenship and pride. Not putting her hand over her heart in other situations shows her loyalty to the JWs. Telling a line judge that she'll "Fing kill you!" probably happened on one of her non-JW days.

I grew up with some young JWs who did not get baptized but came to the meeting and went out in service with their parents. Asking them why they all told me something along the lines of "my parents don't think I'm old enough to make that decision." I count them among having truly caring parents who decided early on not to have their kids locked in before they had a chance to understand the ramifications.

I also note that Venus doesn't really talk about the JW thing at all. No one has made it clear as to her status.

In any case, the whole Serena situation is full of double-speak and hypocrisy no matter what the facts may be.

JV

51

Bearded students on Ministry school?

by NikL in

jw
friends

so at last nights ministry school we had 2...yes that's right two that had parts and gave them with beards.. i found it interesting.

i thought the consensus was that you couldn't have any extra privileges if you wore one.. maybe the school is different?.

anyway, anybody else seen this in the u.s.?.

Juan Viejo2

The Watchtower can come up with obscure scriptures from the Torah and the prophets to prove a point they want to make, but when there are scriptures that clearly state that you must not cut your beard or sidelocks, they ignore those and say they don't apply any longer after Jesus' time.

And yet there are clear indications that Jesus and all of his Jewish apostles and disciples had beards because that was the more or less enforced custom at the time. The only clean-shaven men were Roman soldiers and some major politicians of the time. But the Greeks wore beards and were admired and treated as men of high standing.

The Watchtower has absolutely no basis to ban beards or facial hair based on biblical standards. They are, in effect, taking a stand that is in clear opposition to biblical teachings.

JV

16

I was Kidnapped!

by TerryWalstrom in

jw
friends

__________________i was kidnapped today ____________.

a rainy day in ft. worth is bad news day for terry.

my elective transportation is 100% bicycle and i can get through just about all weather except rain.

Juan Viejo2

Great reply, Terry!

I lived in Fort Worth from 1987-1994 and worked for Tandy during the John Roach era. I've been through there twice since then and the whole Hulen Mall area has completely changed. During my "single" years there in the early 1990s, I met several women who were "certifiable" in more ways than one. I guess what saved me is that I can't dance and being able to do the" two-step" was more important for a guy than having teeth or hair.

Perhaps the most significant thing that ever happened there while I lived there was my invitation to the Petroleum Club in downtown Fort Worth. I think I had $50 on me and was surrounded by at least two dozen of the richest men in the world and their ladies - you know, the big bosomed, big hair types. At least my suit was pressed and my shoes shined. I had to give a brief speech on Tandy's ability to set up computer networks in schools and small businesses. I doubt if anyone heard a word that I said, as most were chatting amongst themselves and drinking the whole time. At least it was memorable for me.

Oh, and I almost forgot: A young woman that worked as a clerical employee in my department at Tandy was an "entertainer" of sorts. She and her sister and her mother were Persian "belly dancers" on the weekends. I only found out later that they were also Jehovah's Witnesses (or claimed to be).

Sometime around 1992-93 I was working at Tandy Center. The young lady's workstation cubicle was about 50 feet from my office. One day she came over to my office and gave me a flyer about a "Medieval Times" type of faire that was being held a few miles outside of Fort Worth. She told me that she would be entertaining there with her mother and sister and would appreciate my coming to watch them. So, having nothing better to do, I drove over to check things out that weekend. I eventually found their little stage at the end of the main path that went past all the small booths that had souvenirs and trinkets. Sure enough, there she was in her belly-dancer outfit - along with her mother and younger sister doing the hoochy-cootchy.

Before they started their dance routine, the three of them came down and moved amongst the growing audience and passed a basket for tips and gifts of money. Since I knew the young lady personally, she came over to me and held out her basket. I was feeling generous, so I dropped in two $20 bills. She grabbed me and took me over to the stage to meet her sister and mother briefly before they started their dance. She told me to be sure to stay for the whole performance.

The three of them put on a performance for the ages. Every step they took, every motion of their bodies was in step with the background music. All very sensual and yet in time with the music. She and her mother were quite buxom, while sis was still "growing." Before long there was a very large crowd gathered around to watch their performance. Then, in one amazing move, they all spun around, whipped off their tops and covered their chests with their left forearms while waving their tops over their heads in their right hands. Then in one more spin managed to put their tops back on and snap them in place. I had never seen anything like that. I was a bit shocked, but at the same time realized that I had really not seen anything more than I would have at the beach when ladies laid on their stomachs with their tops off. It definitely was erotic, but not profane in any way.

The next work day she came over to my office and asked me if I enjoyed the "faire" and their dance routine. I told her that I had never seen anything quite like that. Then I asked her to step into my office and close the door behind her (office had windows, so nothing was hidden). I asked her if she and her family were really Jehovah's Witnesses - and if so, had anyone ever said anything to them about their weekend jobs?

She told me that they got a lot of flak at first at their Kingdom Hall when they started appearing at the Medieval Times Faires, but nothing more was ever said and they had never been stopped from doing it. The mother had explained to the elders that the dances were all true to form and traditional, that what they were doing was legitimate work and recognized by international entertainment groups as being in good taste and acceptable. The mother also performed at some local bars as an entertainer on "belly-dance" nights (the girls were over 18, but not yet 21). All three and the father were JWs in good standing and after the initial inquiry the other JWs never said anything more about what they did for a living. She told me that if someone asked her what she did for a living, she'd just say, "I work at Tandy Corp in support services."

I've often wondered if any other JWs had similar jobs like theirs and managed to survive the JW gossip hounds. I've previously shared a story about a JW husband and wife that sold custom bras and girdles at "house parties." They went through hell over that as it was the husband who was the "fitter" and took measurements.

Oh well, I digress...

JV

16

Why does Jehovah choose certain people to rule with him in heaven?

by iWant2Learn in

in other words, what good works have the 144000 done to be secured a place in heaven?

i am told they have already been chosen.

does that mean that jehovah also knows our future?

Juan Viejo2

I asked that very question to Lester Dugan, a lifetime second generation JW who was, at that time, our "Circuit Servant" in Southern California (mid 1950s). I was in my early teens at the time and the whole concept of the 144,000 was completely unintelligible to me.

In those days, there were more of "the Remnant" still around (at least until the more recent second generation of "anointed remnant of specially chosen ones.") We had maybe 8 or 10 members who "partook" of the emblems each year in our KH. Brother Dugan's mother lived in our town and went to our Kingdom Hall, so we saw him about twice a year even when he was not our Circuit Servant. When he visited he often would gather the children and teenagers around and allow them to ask him questions about the Bible.

One Sunday afternoon, just before the one hour "public talk" was about to start, Brother Dugan set up a section near the front of the seating area and then asked us if we had any questions. There were often some very good ones like:

"What color skin did Adam and Even have?"

"How did God keep the salt water of the oceans from mixing with the fresh water of the lakes from mixing during the flood?"

and ... (my favorite)

"How do the 144,000 know that they are of the remnant and destined to go to heaven when they die?"

It's been many years, but Brother Dugan answered that question with a lot of caveats. If I remember most of what he said, it went something like this (not a direct quote) :

"Do you know what instinct is like? How some people have certain talents that seem natural to them, but unachievable for others? How very few people can become artists or musicians almost without trying, while others can try and take lessons but never succeed at those skills? How some people just know where they are and never get lost - while you or I can not find our way home without a map or a guide? Those are ways that the 'anointed' know that they are members of the 'Little Flock.' If you do not know instinctively that you are one of the chosen, then you are not part of that privileged group."

As the group broke up, the younger ones still had no clue what he was talking about. But I thought at the time that I grasped the concept that he was trying to convey without giving away any "secrets."

But a few years later, while out in door-to-door service with an elderly sister who also claimed to be "anointed," I mentioned in passing what Brother Dugan had told us during that meeting. I'll never forget her response:

"It's not like that at all. I don't know where he came up with that explanation, but it's nothing like that. But I can't tell you how I know and you would not understand anyway. So just focus your mind on the preaching work and what the New Earth will be like. You will never know what being 'chosen' is like. It's best if you don't ask those kinds of questions."

I had one other opportunity to converse directly with an older brother who claimed to be a member of the 144K. His response to me was to simply ignore my question and tell me to "focus on other things." If I remember correctly, I was embarrassed and somewhat angry with his response. I know that the whole thing was a total mystery to my father. My mother wouldn't talk about it at all. I'm sure they were as baffled as I was about that belief.

Lester Martin Dugan
Obituary Condolences

DUGAN, LESTER MARTIN Age 96, passed away Wed., 10/6/04, in Hemet, California. Lester was born January 28, 1908 in Beaver Co., Oklahoma. He was a dedicated full time minister of Jehovah's Witnesses for more than 70 years! Lester is survived by his devoted wife, Teressa Dugan. His loving son, Jim W. Dugan and his wife, Florence of San Felipe, Mexico. His 8 step-children: Robert Sola, Terri Murphy, Erin Burks, Cathy McInnis, Shaughan Murphy, Charles Murphy, Patricia Murphy, Anne Calles and their children. He has two grand daughters: Kathleen Parsons of Ramona, CA and Elaine Taber of Yucca valley, CA. He has 4 great grandchildren and 2 great-great grandchildren. A memorial service will be held at the Mira Loma Assembly Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses in Mira Loma, CA on Monday, October 25, 2004 at 7PM.

Published in Press-Enterprise on Oct. 14, 2004

JV

16

I was Kidnapped!

by TerryWalstrom in

jw
friends

__________________i was kidnapped today ____________.

a rainy day in ft. worth is bad news day for terry.

my elective transportation is 100% bicycle and i can get through just about all weather except rain.

Juan Viejo2

Terry,

When I lived in Fort Worth, Hulen Mall was the place to go to meet "friendly" ladies. And I don't mean that in a bad way. There was another mall up north of Fort Worth that was similar in many ways. I think the single (and some not so single) ladies would go there to troll for "one nighters."

During a period when I was split with my wife (we lived over by McCart and Alta Mesa), I'd go over to Hulen Mall to get some dinner, just wander around, and maybe go to a movie. The ladies were always very friendly - smiling and saying "hi" to me as I just wandered around with a cup of coffee in my hand window shopping. If I sat down on one of the benches and just "people watched" for a bit, I was sure to be approached for a friendly conversation that often included, "so are you married?" If I answered "separated" or "almost divorced" - that was like being "better than single." I was sure to get invited to go dancing or out for an "adult beverage." Of course, those situations usually happened when I was just hiding out from the extreme heat or cold outside - depending on the season.

I worked at Tandy Center in downtown Fort Worth (hey, Terry! what do they call that now?) and would often go down to one of the bars that looked out at the ice skating rink. I was usually only there for a few minutes by myself or with a male co-worker before being invited to join a group of ladies at their table.

Yes, Fort Worth was unlike anything I had experienced in the years I lived in California where women would blow a whistle and call security if you approached them. Texas women could be very aggressive and loved it when you'd just go up and say hello. And they cut right to the chase; I had a librarian ask me out and I was still wearing my wedding ring. The nice thing about them was that they were very comfortable dealing with rejection. All I had to say was, "sorry I'm waiting for my wife (or someone)" and they'd back off or say, "maybe next time?"

I guess there are worst things that could happen to you than being kidnapped by a lady Texan. Oh - those were the days...

JV

Juan Viejo2

Posts by Juan Viejo2

-------

A lot of tears were shed, a lot of money and property lost, and a lot of medical procedures put off for too many years because JWs believed the big 1975 lie. The Watchtower will forever carry "blood guilt" over that major blunder.

JV

Lester Martin DuganObituary Condolences

Lester Martin Dugan
Obituary Condolences